Great article about the Law and the Plame leak.

Posted: Apr 17 2006, 12:10 PM
QUOTE ("findlaw.com")


The Truth About Lewis "Scooter" Libby's Statements to the Grand Jury Claiming the President Authorized a Leak of Classified Information:
The President and Vice President Are Not In the Clear Yet



By JOHN W. DEAN
Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald has now revealed in court filings bombshell information that I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby told the grand jury investigating the leak of Valerie Plame-Wilson's covert CIA identity. According to Fitzgerald's filings, Libby said that he was authorized by the President and Vice President to leak classified information to New York Times reporter Judith Miller.

This revelation has been accompanied by a number of public misstatements, which call for correction. The most blatant of these is the claim that Fitzgerald's filing indicates that the President authorized the release of Valerie Plame's covert status at the CIA. In fact, the document is conspicuously silent on this fact. The filing does indicate that the President authorized the release of classified information, but it was different information - a National Intelligence Estimate that had been classified pursuant to an executive order. In addition, conventional wisdom - if that label fits the consensus information that is surfacing on radio and television news shows - has it that this information does not reveal that the President or Vice President did anything illegal. But that claim, too, is not necessarily accurate.

At a minimum, the filing indicates that the President and Vice President departed radically, and disturbingly, from long-set procedures with respect to classified documents - and that the Vice President, in particular, exceeded his declassification authority. And it may indicate that they, too, ought to be targets of the grand jury.

Libby's Grand Jury Testimony Regarding Valerie Plame

As readers will likely be aware, Fitzgerald indicted Libby for obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements to federal investigators. In response, Libby has repeatedly sought discovery of government information that he argues is relevant to his defense. On April 5, Fitzgerald's office filed a response to Libby's third effort at discovery of such information.

In his response, Fitzgerald treated Libby's request as a mere fishing expedition, a fairly typical response by a party who does not want to give up discovery. But Fitzgerald also revealed crucial new information about his investigation and findings in opposing Libby's request.

The Plame controversy, readers will recall, began with a July 6, 2003 New York Times Op Ed by Joseph Wilson, taking aim at the Administration's claim that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy uranium from Africa to be used in nuclear weapons. The Op Ed began, explosively, as follows: "Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq? Based on my experience with the administration in the months leading up to the war, I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat."

Fitzgerald's filing noted that the "evidence will show that" that Op Ed "was viewed in the Office of the Vice President as a direct attack on the credibility of the Vice President (and the President) on a matter of signal importance: the rationale for the war in Iraq."

Column continues below ↓
Undercutting Wilson's Credibility with Classified Information

Plainly, Fitzgerald believes Libby lied, and this will be the central issue at his forthcoming trial. Fitzgerald contends that the evidence will show that contrary to Libby's statements to investigators and the grand jury, not only did Libby know of Valerie Plame's work at the CIA before he spoke to journalist Tim Russert, but Libby also used that information as part of the effort to discredit Wilson's Op Ed.

According to Fitzgerald, Libby "undertook vigorous efforts to rebut" Wilson because "Vice President Cheney, defendant's immediate superior, expressed concern to defendant regarding whether Mr. Wilson's [CIA-sponsored] trip [to Africa to determine if Iraq was getting uranium from Niger] was legitimate or whether it was in effect a junket set up by Mr. Wilson's wife."

This disclosure about Wilson's wife, according to Fitzgerald's filing, "was one way" to undercut the Op Ed - based on the hope it would be taken less seriously "if Mr. Wilson were perceived to have received the assignment on account of nepotism."

Another way to undercut the Op Ed was to use the top-secret information in the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE). A knowledgeable reporter like Judith Miller would understand that this information was the best judgment of the American intelligence community.

Fitzgerald reports that Libby "testified that he was specifically authorized … to disclose the key judgments of the classified NIE to Miller" because the information "was 'pretty definite' against Ambassador Wilson… and that the Vice President thought that it was 'very important' for the key judgments of the NIE to come out."

When Libby raised the problem of discussing the NIE with Miller because of its classified status, the filing reports that Libby "testified that the Vice President later advised him that the President had authorized" Libby to disclose the relevant portions of the NIE. (Emphasis added.)

The word "later" here, in the filing, is crucially ambiguous: Did the President authorized Libby's actions before Libby actually revealed the classified information to Miller, or afterward? The distinction may make a large difference in Libby's defense: If the authorization was retroactive, then Libby initially revealed classified information without permission to do so; thus, he would have reason to lie.

In addition, Cheney's counsel (now Chief of Staff) "opined that Presidential authorization to publicly disclose a document amounted to a declassification of the document." (Emphasis added.)

Again, the language here is telling. The filing says that the President's actions "amounted to" declassification, not that the President had unilaterally declassified the material. To the contrary, it appears the material was not declassified for several days.

Can a President or Vice President Unilaterally and Selectively Declassify?

Assuming that Libby's testimony is accurate, did the President do anything wrong by so declassifying the NIE? Given the fact that the national security classification system is created by executive order of the president, it would appear logical that the president has authority to unilaterally and selective declassify anything he might wish. However, that is not the way any president has ever written the executive orders governing these activities. To the contrary, the orders set forth rather detailed declassification procedures.

In addition, there is law that says that when a president issues an executive order he must either amend that executive order, or follow it just as others within the executive branch are required to do. At present, we have so few facts it is difficult to know what precisely Bush did and how he did it, and thus whether or not this law is applicable. There is also the problem that no one has standing in court to challenge a president's refusal to follow his own rules. But voters may take note of the disposition of this administration to play by the rules, and put a Democratic Congress in place to keep an eye on the last two years of the Bush/Cheney presidency.

What is apparent, however, based on Fitzgerald's filing, is that no one other than Bush, Cheney, Libby and apparently Addington was aware of this unilateral and selective declassification - if, indeed, the NIE was declassified. The secrecy surely suggests cover-up. For example, Fitzgerald notes that Libby "consciously decided not to make [then Deputy National Security Adviser] Hadley aware of the fact that defendant [Libby] himself had already been disseminating the NIE by leaking it to reporters while Mr. Hadley sought to get it formally declassified." (Also, CIA Director George Tenet apparently was not aware of the partial declassification by Bush.)

Whatever authority Bush may or may not have had, however, it is crystal clear that Vice President Cheney did not have any authority to unilaterally and selectively declassify the NIE.

Recently, Cheney made the public claim (to Brit Hume of Fox News) that he had authority to declassify national security information. Learning of this, Congressman Henry Waxman asked the Congressional Reference Service of the Library of Congress, which issues non-partisan reports, whether Cheney was right. CRS found that the Vice President has limited declassification authority, generally speaking. And their report shows Cheney had no authority in this instance - only in situations where the Vice President had been the authority to classify the material in the first place, could the Vice President have the authority to unilaterally declassify it.

The Meaning of Libby's Revelations - and Their Possible Consequences

Libby's statements regarding the President are clearly hearsay; he was repeating to the grand jury what he claims Cheney told him. Accordingly, Bush is probably still protected by Cheney.

Presumably, Patrick Fitzgerald asked both Bush and Cheney about their actions when he interviewed them. But what they said, has yet to be revealed. If Cheney lied to protect himself, in the interviews, then he could also have lied to protect the President. Or Cheney could have opted to take the fall, and leave the President out of it.

Many commentators are dismissing this situation as run-of-the-mill presidential/vice presidential politics. But I believe it is more serious.

From a political perspective, separate from the illegality, there is the hypocrisy: The Bush Administration has prosecuted and sent to jail officials who leaked far less serious information - as I discussed in detail in a prior column. It is actively, and currently, threatening to prosecute others who have leaked information about the president's illegal electronic surveillance of Americans.

Beyond the hypocrisy, however, is what the President, Vice President, Libby and no doubt others did to destroy the career of Valerie Plame. Maybe the administration has quietly settled with the Wilsons, who seem to have dropped out of the public eye. This would have been wise, because as the facts unravel, it increasingly appears that administration officials did indeed attack Mr. Wilson for his speaking out; the leak of his wife's identity does indeed seem to have been done in harsh retribution. Such a violation of civil rights is a crime.

Finally, even if Bush and Cheney both get away clean of criminal charges, or even the suggestion of criminal conduct, this is still devastating for the Administration. Illegal or not, the President and Vice-President's actions, as recounted by Libby, are ugly in the extreme.

After all, Fitzgerald's filings indicate that, at a bare minimum, these highest of officials played fast and loose with declassification rules as part of a scheme to take an uncalled-for revenge against a critic who dared to question an Iraqi war justification. Even more damning, is that the critic turned out to be right: Weapons of mass destruction have never surfaced, no uranium was sold by Niger to Iraq, and the Administration's call to arms was bogus.

There will be more devastating revelations from the Libby case, I am certain. I have written of this matter in the past, and anticipate writing more in the future. The Commander-in-Chief-can-do-no-wrong veneer is wearing off, thankfully. For a nation that cannot hold its commander-in-chief responsible is something other than a democracy.
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 12:28 PM
I like what the Republican prosecutor, Fitzgerald, is saying about it.
QUOTE
But now White House officials, and specifically President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, have been pitched back into the center of the nearly three-year controversy, this time because of a prosecutor's court filing in the case that asserts there was "a strong desire by many, including multiple people in the White House," to undermine Mr. Wilson.

The new assertions by the special prosecutor, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, have put administration officials on the spot in a way they have not been for months, as attention in the leak case seems to be shifting away from the White House to the pretrial procedural skirmishing in the perjury and obstruction charges against Mr. Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis Libby Jr.

Mr. Fitzgerald's filing talks not of an effort to level with Americans but of "a plan to discredit, punish or seek revenge against Mr. Wilson." It concludes, "It is hard to conceive of what evidence there could be that would disprove the existence of White House efforts to 'punish Wilson.' "


Posted: Apr 17 2006, 12:35 PM
Good find thumbs.gif

I however believe that yet again, nothing will come of this. Just like all the other ILLEGAL things Bush and Co. have done. Its really sad too. All this shit just gets pushed under the carpet by the "liberal media". Illegal wirtetaps, leaking the identity of a CIA agent, giving high postions to unqualified friends, cutting military benfits, admitting that information that got us into the war was false ( again the truth was there he just ignored it) When will this asshole be impeached?
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 01:14 PM
-looks at watch, waits for hett to arrive and dispute every point made-
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 01:15 PM
QUOTE (donvito @ Apr 17 2006, 03:14 PM)
-looks at watch, waits for hett to arrive and dispute every point made-

*Gets popcorn and waits*
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 03:50 PM
I'm a republican and I honestly don't know which is worse; the seemingly endless string of illegal activity or the fact that they are so inept that they continue to get caught time after time.
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 03:54 PM
QUOTE (bwyble @ Apr 17 2006, 05:50 PM)
I'm a republican and I honestly don't know which is worse; the seemingly endless string of illegal activity or the fact that they are so inept that they continue to get caught time after time.

What I think is funny is the people who blindly follow Bush. No matter what happens

see: usfhett99 rolleyes.gif


Posted: Apr 17 2006, 10:50 PM
QUOTE (ferris @ Apr 17 2006, 11:35 AM)
Good find thumbs.gif

I however believe that yet again, nothing will come of this. Just like all the other ILLEGAL things Bush and Co. have done. Its really sad too. All this shit just gets pushed under the carpet by the "liberal media". Illegal wirtetaps, leaking the identity of a CIA agent, giving high postions to unqualified friends, cutting military benfits, admitting that information that got us into the war was false ( again the truth was there he just ignored it) When will this asshole be impeached?

i've been saying this since before he got re-elected and it seems it just keeps getting worse. sometimes i wonder if he will go down in history like grant did.
Posted: Apr 17 2006, 11:27 PM
QUOTE (ferris @ Apr 17 2006, 04:54 PM)
What I think is funny is the people who blindly follow Bush. No matter what happens

see: usfhett99 rolleyes.gif

Good article.

You know what I think is funny Ferris? Is that people like you think you know what you're talking about. You are consistenly challenged by myself in this section, and yet never respond, and I doubt you will respond to this. Explain to me how I support Bush blindly? I have said from the beginning of this entire investigation, and currently, that I await to see what happens before I make judgement. Here is what has happened...the special prosecutor did not seek an indictment of the president, the vice-president or Karl Rove. And even the indictment handed down was not one that charged Libby with leaking the name, it was for perjury (even though that is very serious too, and found guilty, I expect him to be punished). So basically the biggest question I got from the article was this...did Bush authorize the NIE to be released before, or after Cheney told Libby to do it. Regardless of what REALLY happened, I find it hard to believe that even if Cheney did it before Bush authorized it, that truth would ever become obvious. So other than that, the president hasn't done anything illegal, so how am I blind? That I think the judicial system is the real judge of guilt, not Ferris? Wsa the president right to declassify parts of the NIE to counter Mr. Wilson's arguement? I think he was. If the president has the ability to counter a critic, why shouldn't he? People familiar with the government know that the NIE is the intelligence communities best guess, so if the NIE is telling Bush that Saddam has WMD's, and that Wilson is wrong, why should he think any different.

And what I think is more funny about you Ferris is that you think I support Bush all the time, no matter the issue. If you were smart enough to acually talk about topics other people don't start, and stuff that isn't covered on the news everyday, you would see all of the things I disagree with Republicans, and especially Bush. But because you aren't smart enough to be able to talk about those topics, you'll never know.
Posted: Apr 18 2006, 10:26 AM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 18 2006, 01:27 AM)
You are consistenly challenged by myself in this section, and yet never respond, and I doubt you will respond to this.

Hahaha lol.gif lol.gif Hi, Pot. This is the kettle. You're black!
QUOTE
Explain to me how I support Bush blindly? I have said from the beginning of this entire investigation, and currently, that I await to see what happens before I make judgement.

Dude, just shut the fuck up- things have been explained to you so many times it stopped being funny. So what, exactly, are you "waiting" for? Did you give Clinton the same courtesy in withholding judgement as you're giving Bush? Something tells me you didn't, since you've been bringing up all the unproven conspiracies about him all along. The president fucking admitted it!! Please explain to me (with your "open mind" of this situation,) how the guy can talk for two years that he would fire whomever leaked the info, when he knew all along that it was he who leaked it?! Then explain how that doesn't count as lying??
QUOTE
Here is what has happened...the special prosecutor did not seek an indictment of the president, the vice-president or Karl Rove. And even the indictment handed down was not one that charged Libby with leaking the name, it was for perjury (even though that is very serious too, and found guilty, I expect him to be punished).

No shit- that's because the prosecutor probably knew all along that it was Bush who leaked it, so it was declassified and wasn't technically illegal.
QUOTE
So other than that, the president hasn't done anything illegal, so how am I blind?

QUOTE
Wsa the president right to declassify parts of the NIE to counter Mr. Wilson's arguement? I think he was. If the president has the ability to counter a critic, why shouldn't he?

So because it technically was "legal," it's ok? This is why you're a blind follower and a sad fucking excuse for an American. Answer me the following questions (I know you'll probably avoid them as usual, but fuck it.) First, what did Wilson say that was incorrect- that Bush had to respond to? Second, if what he said was incorrect, why not just simply come out and say "This guy is wrong, here are the facts...." instead of just smearing Wilson and ignoring what Wilson actually was saying? Third, explain to me how the country benefitted by the administration's reaction to Wilson? The president's campaign benefitted, but not the country. The war on terror was undermined to smear a guy who was critical of the president in an election year. That is why this is so bad. It's why you're a blind follower, and the fact that you're ok with it as long as it helps your guy get elected is why you just don't get it.
QUOTE
And what I think is more funny about you Ferris is that you think I support Bush all the time, no matter the issue. If you were smart enough to acually talk about topics other people don't start, and stuff that isn't covered on the news everyday, you would see all of the things I disagree with Republicans, and especially Bush. But because you aren't smart enough to be able to talk about those topics, you'll never know.

Once again, more bullshit. You claim this all the time, but when was the last time you started a topic about something Bush did that you disagreed with? Too bad there isn't a way to tally the total posts you've made in threads where you give Bush a reach around, vs. the number of posts you've made when you disagree with Bush on a topic. Sure, post a list of topics you don't agree with him on- the point is that if something is being discussed that you disagree with the Republican point of view, you may make one comment, but that's about it. Usually you don't even do that. Why can't you just grow the balls to admit that you did all the work on his campaign so you're passionate about his cause and you'll never speak against him. At least that would show some balls and that you have a brain in your head. Right now, I'm pretty sure even you don't believe the crap your posting. Do you notice that at this point that your explanations for Bush sound more like conspiracy theories than the actual reports do? "Well, maybe this happened which technically makes it not a lie!" "That hasn't been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt!" Do you realize that I need less proof of guilt to physically arrest someone of a crime I believe they committed than you require to simply believe Bush is full of shit or probably corrupt and incompetent? Like I said before, open your eyes and use your head instead of arguing for what reasons the case against Bush may be thrown out for. Notice that even around here, you're pretty much the only one kissing Bush's sack lately?

This post has been edited by jake on Apr 18 2006, 12:04 PM

Posted: Apr 18 2006, 01:25 PM
QUOTE
Hahaha lol.gif  lol.gif Hi, Pot.  This is the kettle.  You're black!


Yet he didn't respond...funny rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
So what, exactly, are you "waiting" for?


Maybe a court decision, and more facts like the article said
rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Did you give Clinton the same courtesy in withholding judgement as you're giving Bush?  Something tells me you didn't, since you've been bringing up all the unproven conspiracies about him all along.


I don't understand why you keep bringing up Clinton? I have told you 50 times that when Clinton was president, I didn't follow shit about politics, and I couldn't have told you even what party he was a member of, I was still in Middle and High school for god's sake.

QUOTE
Please explain to me (with your "open mind" of this situation,) how the guy can talk for two years that he would fire whomever leaked the info, when he knew all along that it was he who leaked it?!  Then explain how that doesn't count as lying?? 


Maybe he was under the impression that other people were invovled besides his inner circle? The information the Fittz released doesn't say Bush authorized the release of Plame's name. I don't know, its one of those things that should/hopefully come out during the trial.

QUOTE
So because it technically was "legal," it's ok?


I am not jumping for joy over it, but he can't be punished for a crime he didn't commit.

QUOTE
This is why you're a blind follower and a sad fucking excuse for an American.


You don't even want to go there.

QUOTE
First, what did Wilson say that was incorrect- that Bush had to respond to?


The president, under the direction of the American intelligence community believed otherwise. In hindsight, yes, Bush was wrong about WMD's...but when you have EVERY intelligence agency in the country saying Saddam has WMD's, along with most of our allies, and the head of the CIA saying its a "slam dunk", why would you think otherwise?

QUOTE
Second, if what he said was incorrect, why not just simply come out and say "This guy is wrong, here are the facts...." instead of just smearing Wilson and ignoring what Wilson actually was saying?


Thats why Bush authorized declassifying part of the NIE to the press, because it would counter Wilson's arguement.

QUOTE
Third, explain to me how the country benefitted by the administration's reaction to Wilson?


If Iraq had WMD's, which at that time was an almost guaranteed assumption by most, it would have made people more secure in that belief.

QUOTE
You claim this all the time, but when was the last time you started a topic about something Bush did that you disagreed with?


And when was there a time that one of your posts, or threads, wasn't a 100% Bush bashing thread?

QUOTE
- the point is that if something is being discussed that you disagree with the Republican point of view, you may make one comment, but that's about it.  Usually you don't even do that.


Like when? I'll post in an active thread, but I am not going to post just see myself talk.

QUOTE
Why can't you just grow the balls to admit that you did all the work on his campaign so you're passionate about his cause and you'll never speak against him.


lol...too bad you don't actually have any idea what your talking about. I resigned from my seat on the Hillsborough Republican Executive Committee because I don't like the way the party is going, as well as resigned as political director of Tampa Bay Young Republicans. While I disagree with alot of what is going on recently with the party (immigration, budget, etc.), I stand by many of the issues from the 2004 election that are still relevant today because I still agree with him. I don't like alot of the stuff he has been doing recently, but that doesn't change how I feel about those past issues. The only reason I have changed to No Party Affiliation is because I want to vote in the Governor primary in September...and if things haven't changed around by then, I won't even consider myself a Republican anymore.








Posted: Apr 19 2006, 12:55 AM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 18 2006, 12:27 AM)
You are consistenly challenged by myself in this section, and yet never respond, and I doubt you will respond to this.

Damn I guess I was right rolleyes.gif
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 09:23 AM
QUOTE
I don't understand why you keep bringing up Clinton? I have told you 50 times that when Clinton was president, I didn't follow shit about politics, and I couldn't have told you even what party he was a member of, I was still in Middle and High school for god's sake.

Fair enough- so do you give him the same benefit of the doubt now? You never mention ANY of Clinton's scandals to your Republican pals because they weren't proven in a court of law, right? wink.gif
QUOTE
Maybe he was under the impression that other people were invovled besides his inner circle? The information the Fittz released doesn't say Bush authorized the release of Plame's name. I don't know, its one of those things that should/hopefully come out during the trial.

Once again with the "maybe blah blah blah....." Don't sit there and try to figure out what might have happened to still make Bush a good guy. Use your common sense here- should I post some of Bush's quotes from that time frame to refresh your memory as to what he said when he was trying to get re-elected?
QUOTE
I am not jumping for joy over it, but he can't be punished for a crime he didn't commit.

True- but this excuse is fucking lame. I'm not saying he can or should be charged with the leak, but you're ignoring the LIE and letting a really shady thing go on a technicality. It's like the argument that Clinton technically didn't lie because the legal definition of "sexual relations" didn't include oral sex.
QUOTE
You don't even want to go there.

Why- are you gonna internet fight me? Obviously, by your response to this and everything else that adds up to us being lied to, you put the re-election of your candidate ahead of the good of the nation. You think that supporting the president makes you some fucking hero, but it doesn't mean shit when he hasn't done a damn thing that's been good for the country. You aren't supporting the president or your country- you're supporting your party. Hell, you can't even come up with a list of things Bush has done well for the country!
QUOTE
The president, under the direction of the American intelligence community believed otherwise. In hindsight, yes, Bush was wrong about WMD's...but when you have EVERY intelligence agency in the country saying Saddam has WMD's, along with most of our allies, and the head of the CIA saying its a "slam dunk", why would you think otherwise?

If that were true, sure. But, why would they say that there was "no doubt" of WMD, that we knew exactly what they had and where it was- when there were plenty of reports which caused a lot of doubt? They just chose to ignore the reports that didn't support war, and bury anyone who questioned the idea of going to war. You say you haven't seen enough evidence to convince you we were lied to- show me some evidence that we weren't lied to about the things I just mentioned! I'm not talking about random statements from people who believed Iraq had WMD. Explain to me the things I just mentioned.
QUOTE
Thats why Bush authorized declassifying part of the NIE to the press, because it would counter Wilson's arguement.

It didn't counter Wilson's argument, it just smeared Wilson. (Exactly what Fitzgerald just said.) Answer my question- what was wrong about what Wilson said, and why not just counter him with facts? (Hint- the answer is because Wilson wasn't wrong, and they had no facts!!)
QUOTE
If Iraq had WMD's, which at that time was an almost guaranteed assumption by most, it would have made people more secure in that belief.

Exactly- so they talked shit about Wilson to discredit him. It clearly wouldn't have been believed by most if "most" heard all the information. You always forget that "most" saw only the info that the administration gave out.
QUOTE
And when was there a time that one of your posts, or threads, wasn't a 100% Bush bashing thread?

Because the case for Bush bashing is so strong! There isn't anything left to support him on, unless you're a mindless sheep. I'm not saying you have to be unbiased, but you're basing your support for Bush on ignoring what is piling up right in front of you for the distant possibility that it's all a big misunderstanding. It really makes you sound like a joke.
QUOTE
lol...too bad you don't actually have any idea what your talking about. I resigned from my seat on the Hillsborough Republican Executive Committee because I don't like the way the party is going, as well as resigned as political director of Tampa Bay Young Republicans. While I disagree with alot of what is going on recently with the party (immigration, budget, etc.), I stand by many of the issues from the 2004 election that are still relevant today because I still agree with him. I don't like alot of the stuff he has been doing recently, but that doesn't change how I feel about those past issues. The only reason I have changed to No Party Affiliation is because I want to vote in the Governor primary in September...and if things haven't changed around by then, I won't even consider myself a Republican anymore.

And your point is? You're supporting Bush but can't tell me anything he's done well. How does that NOT equal "sheep"??





Posted: Apr 19 2006, 10:59 AM
QUOTE
Fair enough- so do you give him the same benefit of the doubt now?  You never mention ANY of Clinton's scandals to your Republican pals because they weren't proven in a court of law, right? wink.gif 


I don't remember comparing any of them to what is going on now blink.gif

QUOTE
Hell, you can't even come up with a list of things Bush has done well for the country! 


This is tiring. You're right, I can't come up with anything good rolleyes.gif

Here's just a few things

Economically, Bush turned a potential economic depression after 9/11, into a shallow recession, and now an economy that is booming despite high energy prices. The unemployment rate is very low, the market is up, all of this despite high gas prices.

Education, whether you agree with the actually plan or not, you have to admit that at least the president is trying to reform a system that has been broken, and not even attempted to be reformed in decades.

National security, the country is safer since 9/11, no matter what anyone else here says. Its been 5 years since 9/11, and not another domestic attack. The creation of the DHS and the Patriot Act have made America more secure, period.

Social Security, the president tried to address Social Security and invited Democrats to the table to discuss alternatives, but Democrats decided that instead of actually, you know, do whats best for the country, they decided they should tell poor and seniors that Bush is trying to get rid of SS. I can't wait for today's poor to retire in 30 years, when there is no SS.

Energy, the president has made many attempts to create a new energy policy in the country, to try and combat high energy prices. But of course, he was blocked again by Democrats.

And of course there are many other things, but I don't feel like sitting here and typing them.
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 01:42 PM
QUOTE
Here's just a few things

Economically, Bush turned a potential economic depression after 9/11, into a shallow recession, and now an economy that is booming despite high energy prices.  The unemployment rate is very low, the market is up, all of this despite high gas prices.


you cant forget the fact that the national debt ceiling was riased and will have to be raised again. we are now to the point where we owe 30k for every person in this country.

QUOTE
Education, whether you agree with the actually plan or not, you have to admit that at least the president is trying to reform a system that has been broken, and not even attempted to be reformed in decades.


so if you try and reform a system and make it worse is that to be appluaded?\

QUOTE
National security, the country is safer since 9/11, no matter what anyone else here says.  Its been 5 years since 9/11, and not another domestic attack.  The creation of the DHS and the Patriot Act have made America more secure, period.


bullshit. i would say on an average of once a month i read about how some secret test to check our airports/docks/railroads/etc failed because someone was able to smuggle any number of things through the security.

QUOTE
Social Security, the president tried to address Social Security and invited Democrats to the table to discuss alternatives, but Democrats decided that instead of actually, you know, do whats best for the country, they decided they should tell poor and seniors that Bush is trying to get rid of SS.  I can't wait for today's poor to retire in 30 years, when there is no SS.


this one was dumb also but i am in favor of just wiping ss in the first place so not gonna agrue it too much.

QUOTE
Energy, the president has made many attempts to create a new energy policy in the country, to try and combat high energy prices.  But of course, he was blocked again by Democrats.


democrats sure didnt block the vp from having his secret meetings with energy giants when formulating his energy policies did they?
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 02:05 PM
i refuse to read an article that has "lame" in the title
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 05:03 PM
QUOTE
you cant forget the fact that the national debt ceiling was riased and will have to be raised again. we are now to the point where we owe 30k for every person in this country.


I agree with that. Unfortunately, I believe the only only course of action was the tax cuts. I think that in the future though, the tax cuts need to be offset by spending cuts. If Republicans could learn how to restrain spending a little better, things would work out.

QUOTE

so if you try and reform a system and make it worse is that to be appluaded?\


I don't believe it made the system worse. The Center on Education Policy's report

http://www.cep-dc.org/nclb/Year4/Press/

QUOTE


democrats sure didnt block the vp from having his secret meetings with energy giants when formulating his energy policies did they?


So the VP shouldn't consult with the people, you know, that actually produce the energy?
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 06:11 PM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 19 2006, 04:03 PM)
So the VP shouldn't consult with the people, you know, that actually produce the energy?

the problem is when he refuses to let any information out about what went on in the meetings.
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 06:13 PM
QUOTE (SIGH @ Apr 19 2006, 07:11 PM)
the problem is when he refuses to let any information out about what went on in the meetings.

why?
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 08:21 PM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 19 2006, 05:13 PM)
why?

well when you have people from energy companies like enron helping shape our national energy policy i get concerned
Posted: Apr 19 2006, 08:43 PM
QUOTE (SIGH @ Apr 19 2006, 09:21 PM)
well when you have people from energy companies like enron helping shape our national energy policy i get concerned

well whether or not we have the records of the meeting, we can pretty much safely assume what the energy companies were lobbying for. But the Supreme Court ruled that the minutes of those meetings do not have to be made public.
Posted: Apr 20 2006, 12:04 AM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 19 2006, 01:55 AM)
Damn I guess I was right rolleyes.gif

Ferris.........I'm still waiting.
Posted: Apr 20 2006, 12:02 PM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 19 2006, 10:59 AM)
Its been 5 years since 9/11, and not another domestic attack.

This is not true.
Posted: Apr 20 2006, 12:04 PM
QUOTE (usfhett99 @ Apr 20 2006, 02:04 AM)
Ferris.........I'm still waiting.

Okay... post some more non sensical garbage and let me respond before someone else does thumbs.gif
Posted: Apr 20 2006, 02:53 PM
QUOTE (Animus @ Apr 20 2006, 01:02 PM)
This is not true.

blink.gif Did I miss another one? Are you referring to the Anthrax thing maybe?

This post has been edited by usfhett99 on Apr 20 2006, 02:54 PM